(Warning: This Post Has Lots Of Aster*sks)
(oh wow, they were beautiful babies).
So, as you know, I have twins.
Boy / girl twins.
Boy / girl twins who bathe together. Get changed together. Do pretty much everything together. Often quite nakedly.
And yet, neither of them ever seemed to have noticed, ahem, you know, the whole boy girl thing. It was actually getting kind of insane. I mean, these kids are nearly three.
And then a few days ago, I was changing Blue. I stripped him off, then Pink peered over and and pointed at his groin and said Mummy, what is THAT? And I said That's Blue's pen*s. (Because, well, it was). And she looked at me and said Pink have a pen*s? And I said No, Pink, only boys have pen*ses. After that, there followed a conversation about who, specifically, in her life must therefore have a pen*s. Names were named. (I will spare you the details of that conversation).
Aaaaanyway. This conversation, of course, led onto a technical discussion about what girls have. A discussion that we have now had about twice a day ever since. She points at him and says what's that? and I tell her again, and then she points at herself and says what's THIS? and I say.... well, actually, I keep saying different things because actually, I have NO IDEA what word to use for that particular area.
You'd think it would be a simple question, but there isn't a good word, really, is there? I know some people go for vag*na in these circumstances, but I'm not really happy with that. I mean, reproductively, I guess that a vag*na is the equivalent of a pen*s, but when you take a girl's nappy off, that's not really what you see, is it? Is it? I'm embarrassed to say I'm kind of stumped. And what's the internet for if not to answer these awkward questions?
So, I wanna know. Got any advice for me on this one?
We say vagina. And often we also say girl parts. Because I prefer that. (She would prefer to chat me up about VAGINAAAASSS all day long and point mine out to grocery clerks and what not.) Girl parts/boy parts. Does that sort of get to it? My A has been talking about it all so much for so long that we now say private parts because I really don't like how she invades other kids and adults space to have this conversation. So. I guess we say vagina, girl parts and private parts rather interchangably but vagina if we are in the bath, girl parts if we are around littl friends, and private parts if we are referring to the big V in a public place. ;)
ReplyDeletewe say vag!na. and p3nis. Also, in about six months it will be time for this book. Read it out loud by yourself a few times first though, so you don't burst into tears like I did while reading it to your kids. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_9/185-8139369-6441232?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=i+said+no+a+kid-to-kid+guide+to+keeping+your+private+parts+private&sprefix=I+said+no%2Caps%2C249
ReplyDeleteWe call it a yoni. Try it out!
ReplyDeleteI never completely got the whole vagina thing because of exactly what you pointed out... that's not really what you see!
I say use several different words. Find the one you're most comfortable with and stick with it, but give them the familiarity that there are different words for those parts. My daughter made up her own word, and she was pretty upset when she figured out we were letting her walk around using a word that wasn't recognized by anyone else. Always using the "proper" word for the boy parts and not the girl parts also might subtly send her the message that penises are "normal" and okay to talk about, but vaginas are secret or even dirty. That las was from the many women's studies courses I took, so take that with a grain of salt.
ReplyDeleteYou could also go with the general "pee pee", which I don't personally love, but it is a gender balancer. That's what both of those parts do. Which might be useful in convincing them to potty train. It also might reinforce that though those parts look different, they have the same purpose.
My mind immediately wants to say 'Vulva!!!' But then I think... really, have I ever -- once in my life -- ever said that word out loud? I agree with others who have said it has to be something that you feel comfortable saying.
ReplyDeleteI love the conversation about peens (one of 'our words'!) and who's got 'em. Occasionally I will have that realization myself (OMG, I am on this subway train, surrounded by dozens of naked ones that are covered in pants right now) and get sort of freaked out.
This whole topic still kinda makes me giggle a lot. I guess that is not very parent-y of me.
We use v*lva and p*nis 'round here.
ReplyDeleteAs a side note, my four-year old insists she has both.
I'm with Heather...and, similar to her daughter, my 4-year-old wavers between having one or the other, depending on her mood!
ReplyDeleteRuth
My parenting class (part of the twin's preschool) had a S*x Educator come in and talk to us about this very topic. In a nutshell talking about sex, our bodies, etc is just like talking about adoption--it's best to talk about it early and often, using plain terms and facts. You don't want there to be any need to have 'The Talk' because you have always talked about it and it's not a big deal. Just like adoption, knowledge about kids bodies should be a normal topic, not something hidden or shameful.
ReplyDeleteThe teacher said by age 4 kids should be able to name ALL their body parts accurately, even THOSE parts. I have always said pen*s and vag*na with our kids, so felt very liberal until I learned I'm also supposed to teach them cl*tor*s!!! That made me blush!
But we've started teaching them and here is main reason why-- according to the S*x Educator, in a study of convicted ped*ph1les, they all said they would be much less likely to mess w kids who used proper
words for their privates. Kids who use the correct vocabulary obviously have some sort of dialog w their parents about this kinda stuff. Kids who call their privates 'rabbit' or 'my yiyi' or some other cutesy word are more likely to be in the dark about their bodies and more likely to be ashamed if someone touches them inappropriately and therefore probably won't tell anyone. That fact alone made me start calling everything by its correct name.
And yes, the twins (now 3) constantly ask me who has what and they both claim to have both. At some point we need to discuss the "private" part of private parts...as in, you don't need to talk about it in line at Starbucks :-)
We have the advantage of having older kids. So we have a 10 & 14 year old girl around and somehow we starting calling it all the "bits". So there are girly bits, lady bits, and man bits. We'll teach the Pip (who's 2 and diapered, and newly home so not much language) to say bits. When he's older, he'll learn the technical terms, but we still say bits in our family. Because it's cute, and not ackward in public. Of course with kids that age, we have many other funny body parts, including "breasticles", which refer to tweenage not yet breasts but not flat.That one was invented by the 14 yo a couple of years ago. Talk openly whenever they bring it up and it's not ever weird. And then they'll start telling you stuff you don't want to know about their friends. But at least they're talking to you and you're not having the "I hope you're not experimenting with sex" convo LONG after they've mastered the techniques. Oh wait, that was MY mom.
ReplyDeleteI work with children with disabilities (and have a 10 year old too) and so often their parents think that because their minds may not be functioning at a, for example, 13 year old level, then their bodies aren’t either, which is a complete myth (our bodies know how old we are!) But, for some reason many parents think that if they don’t talk to their kid about sex and their body then they are protecting them, but research shows it’s quite the opposite. In fact, the less a kid knows, disability or not, about sex and their bodies, the more likely they are to be victims of sexual abuse.
ReplyDeleteSo I full agree with Little Ethiopian. Labeling body parts their correct names and normalizing talking about sex will pay off down the road; it helps protect them from being exploited from perpetrators and even from unhealthy relationships as they grow up. Our bodies are amazing machines and we shouldn't be ashamed or embarrassed about them. It doesn't mean they need to know it all right now, just answer their questions and give them age appropriate answers a bit at a time. Good luck!
As a function of teaching proper toilet usage, we would talk about wiping either the front or the bottom, so Z ended up thinking that's what her v*g*na/v*lva is called. We've talked technical terms for girl parts, as she's very interested in how a baby comes out, but she still just calls it her front when it comes to bathtime and toilet time. Honestly, both v*g*na and v*lva are hard for her to say, and cl*tor*s we haven't even attempted. I will say that the nice thing about the word front is that it just describes where the parts are located. So we can say that boys have a p*nis and t*st*cles on their fronts and girls have v*lvas with the cerv*x, v*g*na, and ut*rus on the inside. I doubt she would score well on a quiz of those things, though, so maybe I need to do a little more work on s*x education.
ReplyDeleteIn England we called them "girl bits" and "willie". Here in America (at least in California) the term seems to be "privates" for both. There is no way I could say cl**or** to my daughter, but maybe that's because I was raised Catholic.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was growing up there was a show called Mr. Rogers and he sang a song called "Boys are fancy on the outside and girls are fancy on the inside." Love that, I tell my boy and girl that all the time. So far they haven't asked for details....
Good luck with this one, I think you're doing just the right thing.
Amy x
*When* I have a child, we will be using v*lva. It's accurate and I'd much rather have my child start talking about v*lvas in a grocery story than v*aginas, but perhaps that's just me.
ReplyDeleteHave you read Caitlin Moran's How to Be a Woman? She has a whole chapter on her and sister debating what to call their various parts. When I first used pen!s with my son, I cheerfully went on and said 'and girls have v@gin@s.' And then he kept repeating and wanting to know which of his friends have which and I have to say I became terrified he would rock into creche shouting that one of the girls had a v@gin@ and erm, we've been working on the concept of privacy and not shouting and pointing at people.
ReplyDeletevery interesting discussion!
ReplyDeleteWe say p*nis and pee :) Pee is Kendra's word. "Mummy, I still need to wipe my pee" - and it's cute, not very inaccurate so we've kept with it.
So yes, a verb and a noun - whatever.
I have bigger problems like my kids don't want to sleep anymore............. which I need to write about!
We say p*nis and v@gina. I know it's not 100% accurate, but I feel like it's a starting place for her education about her body. And we've had numerous awkward conversations ever since they've all known their anatomy. For instance, the other night at dinner we were all saying things that we liked about each other and one unnamed child said that they liked another unnamed child's P*nis. (Insert my death here) NOT what we were looking for!!
ReplyDeleteWe like this book: http://www.zehlahlum.com/2010/10/book-review-god-made-your-body.html
Just because of course these things should be blogged here's my experience in telling Peanut and Boohoo about v@ginas.
http://www.zehlahlum.com/2010/07/lets-talk-aboutanatomy-for-preschooler.html
and
http://www.zehlahlum.com/2011/08/inappropriate-post.html
I have no advice, but I did very much enjoy reading through the other comments. This week the boys and I were listing all of the English words they know, and pen*s made the list (but not vag*na....). :)
ReplyDeleteI feel like it's strange to say va*na because it doesn't really "do" anything. At least to start, I would probably say a boy pees through his pen*s and a girl pees out of her ureter. Both are pee places, that's the function of them right now. And then as the conversation evolves I would say all the real names of the parts of the areas. We say the real parts and nicknames. A butt around here is a took-took. I guess I think pen*s and vag*na are really not comparable.
ReplyDeleteWhen we adopted our boys, they often referred to their anatomy as "Peter". We quickly gave them the correct word, partly because I didn't want them meeting someone named "Peter" and finding it weird/amusing/etc. and ending up in awkward or disrespectful social encounters as a result - and as it turns out, my tendency to be finicky with language means that I get pretty insistent on the kids using proper words for pretty much everything (yes, it even bugs me with big boy talks about "bunnies" instead of rabbits, and one would think I might find it charming, but no). Baby girl is 2, and we haven't yet addressed those anatomical terms with any of the kids yet - the boys see her naked, but haven't inquired or paid attention to the differences, and I think I usually just refer to her "bum" when changing diapers, practisting toileting, etc. I don't even remember what my mother called that region - I likely learned terms as I gradually learned about birth and later reproduction (and most of it was from my own reading, classmates, etc.). We generally refer to the "privates" in most situations, which works well publicly if a discussion arises (e.g., one of them feels the urgent need to inform me that his "privates" are itchy, or some such thing). I think "privates" as a general reference point works well, anyway, since often the whole area is being referred to, not just one part...but I do agree that gradually teaching correct terms is appropriate and helpful.
ReplyDeleteWe are using "pe*is" and what he so far is calling "budinah." I just have to sympathize about the conversations about EVERYONE you know. He's even asked local librarians what they have. (*blush*)
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I am SO impressed with the maturity level of the comments here! Really, lots of good stuff to think about that I had never considered before...
ReplyDeleteSo, just to add a new word to the mix, I call her private parts her "heinie" - because that's what my parents called it. Though we also use "private parts" (or in the beginning, she called it "my privacy") to talk about where touching is allowed and not allowed.
On a somewhat related note, we use "oonoonas" for br**sts, because that is the word she came home knowing from Sidamic, her first language (babies drink milk from their mommy's oonoonas). I really like that there is very little chance anyone will know what she is talking about when she uses that word (mommy, why does that man have big oonoonas like a lady?), and there is no embarassment on my part to use oonoonas because it's not a word I knew before Elfe came home! She also actually had words in either Sidamic or Amharic that she used for boys' and girls' private parts, but I've forgotten what they are - maybe that is an option for you guys if you can find the words? I want to say it was something like hon-eecho and bo-eecho, but I don't remember which was which...
I am LOVING these comments. LOVING them.
ReplyDeleteWell, all I can say is that it is clear your twins are just 3. By the time they are 4 or 5, just about every conversation will include such body parts! At least with your son. Our son is 5 1/2 and the word "penis" is used in our house at least 20 times /day.
ReplyDeleteWe use v*lva. Because that's the part you see.
ReplyDeleteWell, this thread has me in a sort of quandry. Because we actually use rather unofficial, un-anatomical words to describe my daughters parts and yet I am extremely open, honest and nonchalant about the body and what it does. We happen to have many conversations about our bodies because we spend alot of time together in the bathroom or the locker room or whatever. She asks alot of question about various smells, sounds, skin colors and functions---all of which I explain to her as a natural part of how bodies are supposed to function. I don't shy away from anything, I tell her what everything is and what it does and why it is made that way.
ReplyDeleteSo yeah, we don't use the EXACT words but yes, we do have alot of body talks so she certainly does know what everything is, probably more than most of her friends....so I guess like just about everything else in my life I'm somewhere in the middle.
We also use p*nis and va#ina. This has been a very interesting conversation. :-)
ReplyDeleteWe say v*lva and that her vag*na is inside her body, along with the womb, etc. Despite my daughter being *fascinated* by body stuff, she’s able to exercise a decent level of discretion in public. (She’s 4.5) My word weakness is ann*s — I default to “bottom.” A big ditto to everything that Little Ethiopian wrote. Beyond the exploitation side, it’s part of building a trusting relationship with your child. Sex, adoption, race/ethnicity — what isn’t talked about out loud faces a danger of being interpreted as a taboo topic. Not the message I want to send my kid. I want her to feel open to come to me with her questions, and to believe that I’m going to give her honest answers even when it isn’t something easy to talk about.
ReplyDeleteA couple of good books you might check out:
For now: What’s the Big Secret, by Laurene Brown
For ages 4+: It’s Not the Stork, by Robie Harris
The s3x ed teacher that suggested these pointed out you don’t have to read them word for word to your child if they’re not developmentally ready/you’re not comfortable, but they are good jumping off points.
OK later tonight, when I have a minute to spare I'm going to read all of these comments. And I'm sure I will be well educated and much better prepared for when WE have these convos--thanks Claudia, for always tackling the tough issues for me ahead of time :)
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis couldn't have been more well-timed for me. We somehow ended up on this topic (my little one is 2.5) and I froze when it came time to say vag!na. Not sure why, but it was very interesting. Anyhow, great advice and much needed! (deleted first comment as I didn't use my exclamation mark...no one needs unwanted traffic here!)
ReplyDeleteWait til Pink & Blue start classifying everyone out in the grocery story by girl parts or boy parts ... loudly!! We use the terms penis and vagina. Not exactly 100% anatomically correct but it is sort of a social norm and good enough for me. One of my friends went a little overboard when she asked to borrow our anatomy textbooks so she could teach her son the names of the features on the male and female genitalia ... he was 2 ... it was ridiculous. The general public doesn't run around using words like patella & scapula so I figure as long as are using relatively correct terminology and moving past horrible words like poonani & wee-wee we are doing alright.
ReplyDeleteFascinating conversation! I've been trying to figure out what I call mine, and I guess I just don't talk about it much. If pushed, I would have said "vagina," but you're right, that's not really the outside bit. My parents always said 'crotch,' which is more the area than any specific piece of anatomy. We're adopting a 6 and an 8 year old in two weeks; hopefully we'll get to know each other a little before they start asking us s3x questions.
ReplyDeleteI should have mentioned...when my now-8-year-old was about 4.5 and was deeply fascinated by all things related to body parts, we happened to be in a local coffee shop one time when I caught him staring at the rather tall and somewhat masculine looking woman serving us. My son asked her if she was a man or a woman because he "couldn't tell" (embarrassment #1) and then, when she responded with her gender, he matter-of-factly (and here comes embarrassment #2) said, "really? Well then, I guess you've got one of those vag*na things!" This scene was repeated on a few different contexts before I finally wised up to him and clapped a hand over his mouth when he was about to begin the next time. Thankfully, it wasn't much longer before he understood what was appropriate to talk about in public...and WHAT WAS NOT!!
ReplyDeleteBLessings, Claudia.
Ruth
Oh, dear, Ruth, I imagine you got served a giant scowl along with that coffee.
ReplyDeleteWe taught our toddlers the standard "pen!s" and "vag!na." When I was a child, my mother used the word "vu1va," but I was always confused because none of my peers even knew that word. I believed that "vu1va" was a silly nickname like "hoo hoo" or similar. When we had school $ex ed in grade five, I read the word "vag1na" in the little pamphlet they gave us, and felt proud of knowing the correct term. Unfortunately I thought it was pronounced "vagEEEna," which gave my friends a bit of a laugh, and which made my grade five self want to sink through the floor. Just goes to show that using the correct name is only half the battle!
As a side note: we adopted older children, and we have kept "too-toh" to describe brea$ts, although they do know the English word now. As somebody else mentioned, we had lots of very loud, orphanage-decible questions about overweight men and their too-tohs. Using the Amharic word was a nice way to keep the embarrassment level down.
My parents always just said "private parts." I don't have kids yet, so I haven't had an opportunity to test it out myself. :)
ReplyDeleteSo apparently after my parents explained the difference between boys and girls, I was playing guess who with my brother (I was probably 4, so he was 10) Instead of saying "is your person a boy or a girl" I inquired "Does your guy have a pen!s!" He pretty much passed out from laughing so hard...
ReplyDeleteV*lva reminds me of that Seinfeld episode when Jerry dated a lady named Mulva. I can never say that word. It's like saying "ointment," but worse. When I was growing up, and this may sound really stupid, we called that whole "lady garden" area, the "suzie." Or, just "Suzie." Some of the grown women in my family still call it this.
ReplyDeleteWell, I have always called my son's his "pen*s", despite the fact that my family members FREAK when I say that word. :) I didn't want to use any "cutsy" words with him. I mean, I don't call his arm some funny name, or his nose. Why should "that" part be something taboo to talk about? Well, as happy as I am that he has always called it his pen*s and not some other made up word, I do have on horror story that might make you think twice. :) We were at an amusement park once and we both had to use the bathroom. He was about 3 and being a single mom with no man to escort him in to the men's room, and there being NO WAY I was sending him to the boy's restroom alone at an amusement park, we went together into the bathroom AND together into the stall (am I paranoid? Yes, a little. I didn't want him being kidnapped, or wandering off, or touching any of the filthy dirty items found in an AMUSEMENT PARK BATHROOM...just saying it makes me want to wash my hands! LOL!). Once in the stall he went, and then I had him turn around while I squated. Thinking he was just going to be silly and disobey, he turned around. His eyes grew HUGE and he shouted(SHOUTED, I tell you!), "WOW MOMMY! You have a HAIRY PENIS!!!!!!!"
ReplyDeleteHorrible on SO. MANY. LEVELS.
I think I was blushing the rest of the day.
Anyway, had he said "pee pee" or some cutsy, non gender specific word, it would have been bad enough. Yelling to the entire amusement park that mommy has a penis? I can only imagine what everyone in the crowded bathroom thought at that moment. Anyway, so I guess the lesson is, if you teach your son he has a penis, you better be ready to teach him what girls have so he at least shouts it right! LOL! :D :D
These posts are so great! We have used pen*s and our son (3) has not asked for the girl part word yet. But before showing interest in his pen*s he was interested in breasts. And I couldn't bring myself to use the word breasts. It just didn't sound right coming from a child. I kept avoiding the question while trying out various words in my head. So one day my partner decided...unbeknownst to me...that they were boobies. My son happened to be really into counting things at the time too so he began approaching every woman and saying 1, 2...2 boobies...you have 2 boobies! I still laugh when I think about him doing this and how many people he probably caught off guard with this when we weren't around (daycare, babysitter etc)!
ReplyDeleteWe use pen*s and va*ina, but I suppose vul*a would have been more appropriate and I wish I would have thought about them earlier. I wanted real names for both because I didn't want my girls to think they were just "missing" a pen*s, and because before I had kids I was a preschool teacher, and a recognizing s*xual abuse training startled me. An anecdote was shared about a child that referred to his private area as his "air," so for years everyone thought that when he said his uncle touched his air, he meant his uncle was getting in his space.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, my youngest like to talk about her va*gina incessantly, loudly, and to everyone. I would calmly tell her that discussing her va*gina was fine, but it might make some people uncomfortable, so please talk about it with Mommy when you want to talk about it. I quelled the utter humiliation by telling myself I was setting a good example for the other grocery shoppers and church members.
Love this post and the comments. I'm thankful to read the comments about s*xual abuse training; I never knew any of that. We're adopting a 4 yo, so I guess we'd better decide soon what words we'll use with him. I'm inclined to go with pen*s and vag*na. I agree vag*na isn't technically correct, but it seems to be a commonly used term.
ReplyDeleteMommyBrec, you made me laugh hard. So very hard. :)
We use a range of words to describe the female 'bits'. I have 4 girls bewteen 18 months and 10. I have referred to it as a front bottom, wee wee or va&ina, and the male part is a willy or doodle. I have found from the age of about 5 we introduce the 'v' words naturally and there has been no problems.
ReplyDeleteWe also use 'private parts' to accentuate the privateness of them. I have told my girls that it is not appropriate for anyone outside our immediate family to see or touch anything that is covered by their swimmers (they are one-piece). This works well for us.